Last updated on July 3rd, 2019

Wendy Zukerman is a true podcast success story. Working as a science journalist in Australia, Wendy – along with producer Kaitlyn Sawrey – created the Science Vs podcast on the Australian Broadcasting Company. Listeners responded to the light-hearted tone that was coupled with exhaustive research and a tenacious desire to separate the facts from the myth. The podcast was purchased by Gimlet Media and the additional resources have only sharpened the show’s “fact vs myth” focus.

Discover Pods spoke with Wendy on a day when she was giving three interviews in an afternoon. Despite that hectic schedule, Wendy was enthusiastic, candid, and thoughtful about the podcast – its past, its direction, and its future aspirations.

DISCOVER PODS: The show has a unique approach, not taking itself too seriously and not afraid to crack a joke in the pursuit of scientific truth. Is that approach a natural extension your personality?

ZUKERMAN: Absolutely. I’ve always been a person that can find humor in life. And I think it’s important to realize that science topics don’t have to be tedious and difficult to comprehend.

On the podcast, I think that when people are laughing, they are also learning. At Science Vs, we often dismantle people’s closely held opinions and that can be uncomfortable. So humor helps bridge the gap of understanding when there is disagreement. I mean people don’t have to feel bad because the new research we often present on the podcast can test their previously held assumptions.

So when our research shows that emotional support animals may not relieve stress any more effectively than a blanket when traveling, well that can cause people distress. Our corny jokes can help the listener be more accepting of that new information.

DISCOVER PODS: In the show’s tagline about “somewhere in between,” do you find listeners are generally accepting of the answer about a scientific topic “The science isn’t sure yet.” Does the show consciously want to remind listeners that ambiguity is an essential part of any scientific investigation?

ZUKERMAN: On every topic, we try to find answers that have scientific certainty to them. Sometimes we provide answers but the research itself can give the listener a different spin of the topic. For example, in the episode about the ketogenic diet, our research did confirm that people can lose a significant amount of weight on the diet. But, we also found the drop in weight is probably due more to people just avoiding their favorite foods than the key to the diet – ketosis.

So if I was feeling a bit snacky, I might not eat that cookie and that would help a person lose weight.

Although we try to avoid drawing conclusions that are not supported by scientific data, we also can’t just end every episode with the answer that ‘we’re not sure because the data is not clear.’

In the alcohol episode earlier this year, we began with a scientist who discusses his study revealing that men who drink moderate amounts of alcohol have a 35 percent lower rate of heart disease than non-drinkers. Now that was shocking to us, that moderate amounts of alcohol could have that pronounced benefit of a person’s cardiac health. But then we found another scientist whose study looked at the previous study and came to an interesting conclusion: the non-drinkers in the original study were actually much unhealthier than the drinkers so, of course, the study showed better outcomes for the drinkers.

So sometimes you just have go behind the simple facts and question the methodology of some studies and their conclusions.

DISCOVER PODS: Has being part of Gimlet given you more resources for your episodes and allowed you greater access to experts in key scientific fields?

ZUKERMAN: When we were doing the show in Australia, I had a sound engineer for about an hour a week on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. For every show, I did all the research and that took a lot of time, especially when it’s critical that you source information from different parts of any topic.

At Gimlet, we have a sound engineer dedicated to the show and a research team. Those extra resources have made the podcast better because we can do more, go deeper on whatever topic we cover.

In the episode about alcohol, we spoke to more than 100 cardiologists. Being part of Gimlet lets us go deep into time-consuming research.

DISCOVER PODS: How do you collectively pick topics for the show?

ZUKERMAN: For us, a classic Science Vs topic is one that a family might have as part of their dinner conversation. Look at out topics for this season – DNA tests, vaccines, fasting diets, and even emotional support animals – they are things people are talking about at home or at work.

Our episode this year about prisoners being used in human-trial, bio-medical experiments came from a New York Times letter to the editor, so you never know where you can find material to turn into an episode.

And they are some topics that sort of enter the social media world and the public consciousness. Look, four years ago, vaccines or DNA tests probably wouldn’t have been as controversial as they both are now. Even pets on planes are trend that has been growing and now the news is full of stories about emotional support pigs, peacocks and even kangaroos.

For some topics, it’s all a matter of timing.

DISCOVER PODS: Did you anticipate that this post-factual era would make the show even more attractive to listeners treading water in pseudo-truths and data negligence?

ZUKERMAN: When we started in Australia, that wasn’t in our minds, but, of course, things have changed and our show is really well-placed to help people separate fact from fiction.

We are not trying to take sides, just helping people move out of their comfort zones when it comes some important topics.

I’m still convinced that people do pay attention to facts. That’s why I always ask myself “have we done our homework on this subject?”

We then ask if a statement is actually a fact – why and how. And we try to keep our facts concise and digestible. If we can state a scientific fact in one sentence instead of five, we’ll make it easier for listeners to understand and maybe change their minds.

There is so much misinformation out there that I think our show can continue to help people cut through all the clutter. After all, every day, there seems to be some study that contradicts another study. People aren’t sure what and who to believe. I know that we can really help make sense of it all.

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